If you have questions or if you want to share your opinion about Aware IM post your message on this forum
#52527 by Jaymer
Tue Dec 24, 2019 5:40 pm
this is a report from this thread (in case that thread gets deleted).

i dunno, I try to help people. this is a knowledge base. its supposed to be a community. we're supposed to help each other [aren't we - maybe my attitude is wrong].
Its not only this forum, but doesn't it irritate you when someone posts a question, and then says "never mind, i figured it out" and then doesn't take time to contribute and post the solution. Like, their time was more valuable - you read their question, maybe thought about it, maybe researched it, maybe wondered that yourself. And yet they can't take time to clarify the syntax or method to help those who come behind them.

LOL - I politely and Privately asked Amit to share his results - asking for help and then "ok, i figured it out" doesn't help anyone.
(So I didn't want to post that here and 'call him out' - thats wasn't my intention.
Vlad had recently replied in another thread to Mark Fredericks (and Amit worked on this for Mark) about MOBILE SNAP INTO.
Mark wrote me that it was solved.)

And the answer I got was that some clients may be under NDA and I'm not free to discuss.
OK, I'm calling bullshit.

And then I get a tirade from Amit about this and that - ok, if we want to be stingy and not post solutions to things, but only ask for help when we need it, well thats great.
Happy fucking new year.
Our community isn't growing - its shrinking.
And this knowledge base will keep on shrinking too with attitudes like this.

so yeah, I think someone's being Stingy if they take from the forum - ask questions - find a solution - and don't report the solution.
i'm guilty of just being so busy I don't always reply. but to reply "solved it" with no solution! come on!
but everyone's from different cultures and certainly have different values!
but maybe thats just me.

We lost Pureist several years ago - that was a damn shame.
Talbot doesn't really do anything with Aware anymore.
Jonp moved on.
Frank from France (where's that Frog?),
Hayat got frustrated.
SteveB's company is abandoning Aware.
Haven't seen MrBedrm (I call him Mr. Bedroom and think he's with a mattress company) hasn't logged in for 2 months.
Arnold/BWalk/Harry (that cadre) bought, then never adopted (tho Harry posted this week)
Most of this was in 2019.
(search old threads and there's plenty of posters who were asking good Qs at one point and haven't seen the forum in years)

The product is hard enough to learn without people being Stingy (I had a harsher word here first).
Hope its a better 2020
Last edited by Jaymer on Tue Dec 24, 2019 6:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
#52530 by ddumas
Tue Dec 24, 2019 6:17 pm
I agree. When I have it solved, I always go back and edit the post, and put [SOLVED] in the subject line. That way, for all eternity, everyone can instantly see that an issue is solved right from the subject line. I encourage everyone to do this, and I feel it gives appreciation to those that helped solve it. Usually not by me :) but I am a newbie. I will get better.

#52537 by ACDC
Wed Dec 25, 2019 12:33 am
Yeah, I agree with you totally Jaymer, I visit this forum on an ongoing basis for educational purposes and also to give up help where I can. I have paid for numerous support tickets for solutions and then given them up free on this forum.

There are many built features that exist in AwareIM today that were paid by single developers for the sake of getting immediate functionality that are in the end enjoyed for free by all, magically appearing in the next update.

A lot (most) of the dynamic built in features in AwareIM have originated from this forum. A commitment by all forum members to be one of a GIVING nature is really key here.

It really gets to me that there are some forum members that will take and then holdback on solutions that would help another developer, especially one that offers up help on an ongoing basis.

This problem also is deep rooted in the annual AwareIM conference material, where if you don’t go to the conference you must pay a stupid fee for access to the solutions that some developers have given up. I mean what the hell is that all about. The fact that Awaresoft condones this inward way of thinking and allowed this closed franchise to develop is mind blowing. The biggest opportunity to bringing new AwareIM developers onboard is to expose the annual conference and its content to the world

I wonder what ever happened to Ben Hayat, I used to enjoy his input :(

Anyway to those who are celebrating this time of the year Merry Xmas and Happy New Year to all
#52539 by eagles9999
Wed Dec 25, 2019 1:04 am
Your so right ACDC.
It is so selfish of me to spend countless hours of time and effort and to put my own money at risk to do something for the Aware IM community and then need to sell content to try and break even.

Merry Christmas!
#52540 by swiftinitpvtltd
Wed Dec 25, 2019 1:12 am

How about I come to you at 2 AM and start forcing you to share your current project BSV solution and if you do not I put all bad word against you in forum(I never do that).
I worked late night for a client solution with NDA signed. I was happy that I found a fix on a private project.
Suddenly Guy started a skype chat with capital letters bullying me on why I can not share a solution that he has no connection to and that also at 12 AM- I was about to sleep..
Do you support this bullying behavior?
#52541 by PointsWell
Wed Dec 25, 2019 1:15 am
ACDC wrote:This problem also is deep rooted in the annual AwareIM conference material, where if you don’t go to the conference you must pay a stupid fee for access to the solutions that some developers have given up

Conference is run by a company that is not part of Awaresoft and Mark puts a huge effort into organising, renting location, hiring AV equipment and coordinating. All of that costs money and I for one do not begrudge Mark recovering his costs (hopefully) and ideally making a profit from that endeavour. I do not have the time or the patience to do it, so hats off to Mark.

Jaymer wrote: i dunno, I try to help people. this is a knowledge base. its supposed to be a community. we're supposed to help each other [aren't we - maybe my attitude is wrong].
so yeah, I think someone's being Stingy if they take from the forum - ask questions - find a solution - and don't report the solution.

Having been on the receiving end of your name calling, perhaps your attitude is wrong.
#52543 by johntalbott
Wed Dec 25, 2019 1:53 am
Jaymer wrote:Talbot doesn't really do anything with Aware anymore.

I don't?
#52544 by intra
Wed Dec 25, 2019 1:58 am
Given its Xmas day... i think everyone needs to just chill!

In my opinion, it does no justice in starting such threads just to get some content/reaction going on normally should be a restful break for all developers. Jaymer you're entitled to think what you want to think in regards to people not sharing their solutions. I'm fairly quick to judge at the best of times, however we all just need to accept that some people just don't want to share and for some reason or another they are under no obligation to do so.

Welcome to adulthood and community spirit 101.

I think a lot of us here in the forum have donated/supported in the community in some shape or form, it takes a bloody lot of time to come up with working code, presentations, samples and scripts for which we get no exposure (and honestly i don't want it as it then becomes a support issue). Just like how i pick my clients and for whom i wish to work with, its my choice and if you don't like it well you just need to lump it and move on.

I personally see a need to update the way information is disseminated to the group, I'm sure a few others feel the same way but like all things we need to involve the people at AwareSoft and also obtain some agreement on how this should be done. New forum software, bug tracking system would be nice (while I'm ranting) so that we can keep other developers in the loop about bugs that have already been found and where other developers can comment/suggest a workaround while the official fix is being developed/tested/implemented.

So imho this is a silly thread... you can't enforce people to share their IP as they may see value in keeping it to themselves. If they wish to share... they will.
Last edited by intra on Wed Dec 25, 2019 3:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
#52545 by ACDC
Wed Dec 25, 2019 2:30 am
Your so right ACDC.
It is so selfish of me to spend countless hours of time and effort and to put my own money at risk to do something for the Aware IM community and then need to sell content to try and break even.

Yeah I am sure,

There is nothing wrong with being the conference organizer and making a business out of it and getting paid for it from upfront fees and a special payment from the product owner from their marketing budget (I commend you for these efforts, being in the conferencing business has its challenges and risks)

BUT locking down its content in the way you have for profit is detrimental to the product and the fact that Awaresoft condones it rather than use the opportunity as a stage to attract new developers and build stronger existing developers just doesn’t make sense, it’s also not in the spirit of the forum and good neighbourliness

I can recall in one of the forum requests for a solution, it was quickly indicated by you that the solution was covered on a particular recording from the conference and that they should look at the recording - and that was it ! no further information supplied - that is NOT good neighbourliness, at least an extract could have been offered up
#52547 by Jaymer
Wed Dec 25, 2019 3:14 am
And I was surprised to hear after the last USA conference, when Mark told me he sold a few Zero to Hero classes, that he was happy for that income cause he was still trying to break even.
Most of us have no clue what fees are involved in putting on a conference - so I'm glad that someone steps up to do this and am looking forward to the next one. Certainly wouldn't want Mark or anyone else to be footing the bill for a conference and losing $$$.

I think an "Aware Marketplace" is in the works in the near future - so get ready for more "code for pay" instead of freely given on the forum.
If the market for said code was larger, then perhaps some $ could be made - but all I see is a small user base from my perspective.
#52548 by Markfre1
Wed Dec 25, 2019 3:51 am
I don't have time to read all these posts as its Christmas Eve, but would like to clarify as I think this initial post was blown way out of proportion.

Jaymer, you quoted that I said that snap in is fixed. That is incorrect. We are still working on it, and we are just about there. We had multiple problems to resolve and we are close. As soon as it is done we will post it.

We've are solving a bunch of issues with mobile.

The problem you ran into, and I think had a misunderstanding with Amit is that he posted too soon that is was fixed. He is doing this work for me as there is a lot of javascript going on and the only java I know is coffee. But that's the issue right there, running to the forum to post before completed testing. So it makes sense for it to go through the testing, before we post misinformation.

We will publish this and other things on the forum as soon as it is tested and works.

Just chill a little and be a little patient and as soon as we have the proper code, we will post it. It's Christmas and Chanuka my friend. :)


Mark F.
#52550 by hpl123
Wed Dec 25, 2019 1:04 pm
My 2 cents. I have shared A LOT in this forum during the years and also tried to change the close-mindedness of many of the developers (and Awaresoft) when it comes to community, helping each other/sharing solutions, focusing on win win and overall progress of AwareIM instead of selfish and/or immediate gains and I have to agree with Jaymer (in large part). Most developers do not share their findings, solutions etc. (and I also bet a lot of developers have custom code and solutions they have not told anyone about or shared in the forum) and sure it´s not mandatory to share solutions but if you use the forum to "take" solutions, tips and tricks etc., I find it reasonable to also share some or why should we have even this forum and "community"? I personally try to share as much as I can (not working as much with Aware these days though) but that is just the way I am built and is not the norm here unfortunately.

When it comes to Marks work with the conference etc., first of all I think it´s great Mark does this and is a great event with a lot of great stuff shared etc. so kudos to Mark but I also agree with ACDC that the strategy Mark and Awaresoft employs is not ideal with it comes to overall AwareIM progress, helping AwareIM developers and "neighbourliness".
#52551 by eagles9999
Wed Dec 25, 2019 1:34 pm
Ok. Get the message loud and clear.

Happy to pass the Conference baton to others.
#52552 by aware_admin
Wed Dec 25, 2019 10:57 pm
Please note that all posts with offensive language willl be deleted.

I would also like to remind you that both us at Awaresoft and all the Aware IM developers are here primarily to make money. You cannot close your eyes on this obvious fact. So please be respectful to those who have a commercial approach. While it's good to have things for free you have to respect that everyone's time is precious. So if someone doesn't share it is not a reason to blame or shame him or her.

Having said that it is obviously important to grow the community and share tips and solutions. I think most people here (including us) spend many hours helping people for free. Mark Bailey is outstanding in this, so really I cannot understand people for blaming Mark that he occasionally wants to make some money too. Just come to the Conferences that he organises and meet all your fellow developers - yes, it will cost you but you will learn a lot!

So please chill down everyone and let's enjoy the Year that lies ahead.
#52553 by PointsWell
Wed Dec 25, 2019 11:24 pm
There is more than a little hypocrisy going on here.

The argument that people are not sharing is a spurious one. If I ask a question and I don't get a reply I assume that is because I have either asked a question that no-one who has logged in can answer, either because my question is not brilliantly formulated or because it is touching on an arcane area that no-one has experience of. I don't then keep bumping it up the forum. If someone asks a question and then immediately posts a "I've figured it out" post, then what exactly do you want them to share? The page number of the manual? The module from their app? The former can be found by yourself, the latter is unlikely to be extractable without a lot of work. If you didn't contribute to the solution then you don't really have any 'right' to know what that user did.

That said there are posts asking for fully formed solutions (e.g. Has someone got a copy of a complex system that they can give me). Those requests are never going to get a response because such a request is "Please do my work for me so I can profit from it".

To complain that Mark makes materials available at a cost is exactly the same as asking for that fully formed solution - Mark hosts a conference every year, which requires collation of materials, coordination of presenters, location sourcing, venue rental, catering organisation, a/v equipment rental and at least one evening function. To then complain that he charges for the work that he and others have put into the event is effectively saying "Please do my work so I can profit from it". Why should Mark bear the cost for your benefit. Anyone complaining that there is a cost to the materials has obviously not turned up to the community event. So you are complaining that the person working absolutely the hardest to create a community is not creating a community? That is perverse in the extreme and if the end result is Mark pulling out of organising the conference then slow golf clap for you, killing the community that you are so anxious to grow.

On the subject of "growing community", by attending conference I've tapped into some great resources who I am now in regular contact with and I am less and less inclined to come back to this board. This is for a number of reasons and none of them are related to people's willingness to share or otherwise.

Bulletin board software is not well suited to building a knowledge base. When I have suggested that posts for next release features be placed in the Wish List board (an extremely minor request) I get told "I rather like it here because it gets more views" - a deeply narcissistic and not community spirited response. You may have three hours to trawl for information, I do not. Good information design is the core of any knowledge base which requires user adherence to taxonomy for fast retrieval. So that's one reason I come here less and less.

The way certain users interact on here is high handed, arrogant and dismissive. There are certain users who are abrupt and rude in dealing with requests. Honey catches more flies than vinegar. I'm fed up seeing rude rebukes to users for failing to ask the question in the "correct" format. I am also appalled by the name calling that a certain user resorts to and having been on the receiving end of it has made me less interested in using the forum and instead rely on my own network.

As for reciprocity, that seems like it is self filtering. If I feel like I am doing someone's work via numerous questions then I am perfectly at liberty to stop posting replies to that person. Likewise if I spend a period of time responding to another user's question only to find that they have ignored my help and then immediately started a new thread to ask pretty much the same question without any acknowledgement then that is another reason to be less inclined to use the forum. Similarly when I have provided rough and ready examples of functionality (i.e. Enough to demonstrate the issue) I've received extremely insistent demands for updates or bug fixes which is frankly an abuse of my efforts to help.

My final point on this would be "How does this post help my brand?". Not just this thread but any post. Arrogant responses, rude and brusque questions and refusal to play even the minimal effort in using what we have in the way it has been designed, all degrade the value of this forum and reduce my desire to be part of such a community.

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